Liberals will always be at a disadvantage vis-à-vis the inherently authoritarian right. We have a visceral indisposition to walking in lock-step; a concern for means as well as ends; a commitment to attempting to discern and speak the objective truth; the capacity to consider points of view we don't ourselves hold; an awareness of and appreciation for nuance. The right is burdened by no such constraints. It makes for an unfair fight and I'm damned if I know what to do about it.
A letter to my local newspaper (The Marquette Mining Journal) from a woman complained about "liberals who think ordinary Americans can't think for themselves" on healthcare, and asserting that the anger is real and justified over current proposals. She then went on to admit that she hadn't read the bill, but lashed out at many provisions ("death panel",. etc.) which are not in the bill, but which conservative commentators say are in the bill. Hmmm... wonder why we think she can't think for her self???
ReplyDeleteZenCane
Zen,
ReplyDeleteHave you had time enough to have read the bill? I doubt you have! I read ( or tried to decode some portions of it) and came to the conclusion it was a waste of time. I doubt that even Mr. Cloozoe would claim to have read it in its entirety. If he claims that he has indeed read it, and that he has a complete understanding of its provisions... then my estimation of his disingenuousness will rise to a level rarely exceeded by the most liberal of liberals.
Speaking of liberals, I just can't understand them. As a group they are intelligent, well educated, and thoughtful. Yet they persist in supporting the most illogical points of view. But there is hope. The Obama presidency is likely to result in massive failure bringing untold hardship on the American people for a generation. The result of course will be the complete and utter destruction of the Democrat Party as we know it. The Blue Dogs, unionists, minorities and the other disaffected will gravity to the Republican Party.
Angry Andy
Andy,
ReplyDeleteNo, I have not read the whole bill - but then I'm not making hysterical claims about what's in it based solely on the say-so of Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh say is in it but is not. I HAVE read the pertinent portions of it to the outlandish claims being made (death panels, access to your bank account, rationing), and can say definitively that these claims are false.
"Illogical points of view"? You mean like the view that having the most expensive health care system in the world and getting the 52nd best care in the world doesn't make sense? Or like the view that having for-profit executives with no medical training make decisions about our health care is a poor idea? Or the view that spending ourselves into bankruptcy in a war of choice in a country which has never been a threat to us is foolish?
I'm happy to engage in genuine dialog with people with views who do not match my own - what I resist is the right-wing hysterical hyperbole which is based upon flat-out lies. Or having someone who admits she has not read the bill and then rails against things which are not in it whine when people accuse her of not thinking for herself.
Marvin
Zen,
ReplyDeleteI rely on public television for most of my news. For commentary I read the Washington Post, hardly a bastion of Conservative thought. I admit to being a Fox fan simply because its so much better than anything else. I occasionally watch MSNBC for laughs...especially when Chris Mathews gets tinglings up his legs! As for the Broadcast media...what a drag. At CNN Lou Dobbs is top notch. He would be long gone if it were not for his recently acquired ten year contract, literally forced upon CNN management by Lou's knowledgeable viewers. I do listen to America Right and America Left on my satellite radio. Very entertaining.
As for the provisions in the health plan, its clear they are a moving target. First the public option is in, then its out, now its back in. The Blue Dogs don't like it nor do the Republicans. Obama and the hard line Democrats will back down just to pass something that the Senate will go along with in conference. But when push comes to shove the resulting bill will be so weak it will not not pass muster, delaying another such effort till at least 2011. By then we may have a Congress with a far better understanding of what can be done.
Marvin there is no question the current system is broken financially, but to assert that it is 52nd in the world quality-wise is absurd...you are too bright to accept such nonsense. My personal experience, which includes a gall bladder removal, two stents, surgical removal of a growth on my left kidney, and treatment for diabetes and neuropathy. All of which were done, or being done, in a timely fashion...and,of course, with competence.
BTW, did you fish the Hex hatch this year?
Angry (as usual) Andy
Andy,
ReplyDeleteIf you truly believe that Fox ("We encouraged people to go to Tea Parties for a month and then reported on them as "Spontaneous" gatherings") News can be described as "the best there is", and Lou ("I still haven't seen Obama's birth certificate") Dobbs' viewers are "knowledgeable", then we really stand very little chance of getting anywhere in this discussion.
The reason we're 52nd in the world in terms of outcomes of health care (life expectancy, infant mortality, recovery from various conditions, etc/) is that 50 million people don't have access to the system. My beloved partner works at a local bookstore - she makes too much to get Medicaid, is too young for Medicare, and makes too little to afford health insurance. If she gets one of the conditions you described, she dies. Simple as that. She needs carpal tunnel surgery - what she gets is no treatment, until we can save enough for it, which is unlikely.
We have some of the best health care on the world for the folks who get it - and third-world care for the rest. We also have the most expensive system in the world, because unlike in civilized countries, we use medical health care dollars to pay outrageous profits to some of the providers.
But if you'll recall, this was originally about right wing idiots who parrot lies about what's in the bill, then cry like children when they're called on it.
For instance, this was in Investors Business Daily, on July 30, the following was posted:
"People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."
Unfortunately for the right, it turns out that Dr. Hawking DOES live in the UK, and is alive today precisely because their government run program provided him health care his family would not have been able to afford in the US.
This is the kind of lies I'm decrying. If the right wants to have a real discussion on the merits and facts, I'm all for it. However, they know that advocating a system which places shareholder profits above real health care won't fly - so they make up things up ("death panels"! - that language was lifted straight from Medicare, which already provides "end of life counseling" if the patient desires - have you had to "justify your existence" to Medicaid? Didn't think so).
If people buy this load of crap without checking, then they shouldn't be surprised when people who actually take the time to become informed call them on it.
And no, I don't really like the hex fishing all that much - but now that the tricos are here, I'm in heaven - gotta love those 30x flies!
ZenCane
My Dear Marvin,
ReplyDelete30x flies, I've never heard of such! But then again you may have access to a source of which I am unaware. Let me know what patterns and leaders are your favorites and where you get leaders fine enough to attach such itty bitty flies.
Now to the discussion. I said I watch FOX simply it is so much better than anything else. Maybe FOX is not all that great but NBC, CBS, and ABC are just too liberal to take seriously. Incidentally did Charley Gibson really retire, or was he retired? As for CNN, the previously conservative Wolf Blitizer was pretty good until his management read him the riot act and he succumbed to their liberal demands. As I said before Lou Dobbs is top notch. Do you recall CNN not wanting to renew his contract? His listeners rebelled so loudly that Lou was re-upped for ten years. Have your ever listened to Air America? I don't know where the station gets its marching orders from, but their commentators make Michael Savage (whom I agree goes over the line) seem tame. Over at PBS Judy Woodruff is back after a short stay in liberal land. Sorry to hear we can't get anywhere in this discussion because of my news and commentator preferences.
Face facts Marvin both sides lie; they always have. I choose adhering to the conservative side mostly because they favor growth in business, smaller government, and lower taxes. While I don't adhere to the notion that "greed is good" I do believe that getting rich is not a sin. The best things the U.S. could do to solve the ailing economy would be to eliminate both the capital gains and corporate income taxes, making thousands of millionaires, hundreds of new business ventures, and millions of new jobs. But not to fear Marvin, congress and the president would never give up such huge revenues. They need the money to fund some of their inane programs, most of which are just a form of income redistribution to buy votes.
Why is it unfortunate for the right that Stephen Hawking is a citizen of the U.K.? What makes you believe he would not have survived in the U.S? His father was a professional (graduate of Oxford)involved in medical research. The same livelihood in the U.S. would have provided the same or better care for his family. And how do you know what his father could not afford. The fact that IBD got it wrong is of little significance.
As for the cost of the best medical system in the world, hang that issue on our congress as a whole, not just the right.
Marvin, I beg your indulgence. I believe it is possible to have corporate profits and a less costly system that is now in place. What (or who)do you think has paid for all of the wonderful medical advancements? Waste, fraud, and abuse is cause of much of the high cost...and all agree that lack of oversight by the congress and the executive are to blame. Please notice I have omitted the word "government" which includes thousands of hard working Americans. They are as hard working and as dedicated as any industry group.
As for the "lot of crap", both left and right indulge in the stink if it suits their purpose.
I went fishing in my club (which only admits rich Republicans) water last week. Plenty of water for this time of year, and still cool at 70 degrees. I managed to land three rainbows using BWO's. Its a two plus hour drive from here and at my age the drive back is a burden. So I found a little country motel just outside of Gettysburg for $47.00 a night. Stay two nights and get the third night free. I see lots of mini vacations in my future.
Have a nice day!
Andy